Ratbag...

What I find despisable with Kazuha?It will be very long...^^;
_She's totally FLAT. The character was created with only one purpose, beeing Heiji's TWU LUV and that's all she is...
Let's take Ran, I don't like the Shinichi/Ran pairing at all but I love Ran besides that because she's more that Shinichi's love interest(her relationships with her parents/with Ai/with Sonoko/with Vermouth/ how she acts in vol 42/when she put her ex-teacher in jail/prove the innocent of her favorite martial artist/she know to play piano a bit).
But Kazuha? If you take away her role as Heiji's girlfriend, there is N-O-T-H-I-N-G...Nothing, even her friendship with Ran is superficial and uninteressing...
_The Heiji/Kazuha pairing...Sooo, two childhood friend who falls in love(OMG how original!), they yelled at each other every time so they're in love(OMG what an unique kind of relationship, it's not a cliché at all)...
But my main pet peeves with those two is that the pairing is not believable at all...I know, hearth had reasons that reasons ignore but I love to find a bit of logic in a relationship, and I don't find that with this couple.
I don't see what Heiji could find lovable or attracting with Kazuha, I don't see chemestry nor positive tension between them(I just see two teenagers acting like two immature brats...)...
In fact even a friendship between them is groundless for me, Heiji seemed to be with her most of the times because he is forced by her/don't have the heart to tell her to give him a break, not because they're sharing something...
The reader would never trust the writer without thoughts, he need to be convinced. Aoyama had tried to tell me that those two are lovers, he had failed...And it's not a wonder, he didn't have ever tried to do it seriously...
When I see those two, I see VERY bad subtext, the kind "You don't need mutual fascination, commun interest or complementary personnalitie to have a couple, no...You just need the "childhood friends" wand, we don't know how it works but suspend your desbielief, it's magic.."-_-;
_Kazuha is overpossesive and egoistical...look at her first meeting with Ran and how she is behaving. I'm sorry but if Aoyama don't have a secret flaschback hidden somewhere, Kazuha is JUST Heiji's childhood friends. She never had the guts to tell him that she wants to be more for him and Heiji had NEVER said to her that he don't love her as a friend but something more...
So she don't have the right to act like a wife cheated by her husband, she don't have the right to insult someone who could be Heiji's potential lover and saying to her that she would never break the sacred bound between her and Heiji..Nope...
Heiji is not her husband, he is not her pet, he is not her son, he is not an object which belongs to her...But she's acting EXACTLY like if it was the case.
My opinion? She's egoistical, she don't think to Heiji's happyness but to her own happyness, she don't treat him like a human beeing but like her property...
Oh and even when Ran was suspecting Shinichi to cheat with her, she have never feels anger for the suspected girls but for Shinichi. But Kazuha?She was far to be as fair play with the suspect...
And it's another reasons which made me found the pairing unbelievable, Heiji is proud and independant, Kazuha is overly possessive and jealous , I don't think that a relationship between two people like that could works longer...
It could work if they were maturing in the manga, but since they don't evolves at all...
In conclusion. Kazuha is nothing more that a girfriend for Heiji and I don't like the pairing, so it's very hard for me to like her. She had the kind of flaws that I despise the most with a character and she don't have anything to compensate them...
Oh and I love Heiji, I want to read fics about him and what could I found when I search?Most of the times, romance between him and Kazuha, it didn't help me to love her...

Sorry for the bitter post but since you wanted to know the point of view of some Kazuha's haters...^__^;

From:

When I read your post I see where is your problem with the character of Kazuha: you just don't understand why she was created.
OF COURSE she's NOT interresting (especially for the eyes of occidental people) but she doesn't need to.

Kazuha is a stereotype of japanese KANSAI teenager. She acts like japanese Osaka girls. This is the most important thing. It's seems that japanese like to compare KANTO (Tokyo aera) and KANSAI (Osaka aera). That's why Ran and Kazuha needed to be so similar. But she have some differences. When you live in Japan, you can feel the difference of character (temper? not sure of my english). Maybe this is just what you don't understand.

You said: "I don't see what Heiji could find lovable or attracting with Kazuha, I don't see chemestry nor positive tension between them(I just see two teenagers acting like two immature brats...)..."

In Kansai and especially in Osaka, people like fighting when they like each other. This is not a probleme of maturity but of culture. People in Kanto are differents. They don't argue like that.

But you know, if you don't like Kazuha, this is not a problem. I don't like Haibara Ai and most of people don't really understand why I don't like her.

That's all. I hope you can understand this message and I'm really sorry because my english is really to bad T__T

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No offense meant but... this doesn't change a thing about her jealousy and her possessiveness, nor has she any valuable function in the plot than being Heiji's potential love interest.^^;
And being a typical osakan girl (which means having more temper than Ran) doesn't excuse her aggressiveness either.^^;

OF COURSE she's NOT interresting (especially for the eyes of occidental people) but she doesn't need to.
I don't think this has anything to do that we are Occidentals, I think that lots of occidental cultures and behaviors are more similar to the kansaian temper than the rather shy and reserved attitude of Kanto people. But I think that it is sad that a lack of interesting personality is "excused" as just being a necessary counterpart to a kanto girl. I like the series because of the interesting characters, so Aoyama obviously can create interesting personalities. But then, why didn't he do the same with Kazuha?

But of course, everybody has a different point of view and I certainly don't want to make you like Kazuha less. It's just that I often do not understand the arguments of Kazuha fans, and I'd really like to understand why so many girls like her that much.^^;

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>>> I like the series because of the interesting characters, so Aoyama obviously can create interesting personalities. But then, why didn't he do the same with Kazuha? <<<

I think this is because Aoyama didn't intand to create the characters of both Heiji and Kazuha. Heiji was created because Aoyama received the instructions to do it. He created Kazuha with the aims of giving a typical kansai girl friend to Heiji. There is a parallel between Heiji and Shinichi and the same kind of parallel exists also between Kazuha and Ran.

>>> this doesn't change a thing about her jealousy and her possessiveness, <<<

This is also a specificity of japanese Kansai girls.

>>> nor has she any valuable function in the plot than being Heiji's potential love interest.^^; <<<

Do you think thant Detective Boys, Kaito Kids or Sato Miwako have a better function?
The Detective Boys role is to fill the comedy quota to amuse the younger audience. Kaito kid is just a reference to another manga. Sato Miwako is only the female police officer who can become Takagi's girlfriend.

>>> But I think that it is sad that a lack of interesting personality is "excused" as just being a necessary counterpart to a kanto girl. <<<

What is the interresting personnality of Ran?
I mean Kazuha doesn't belong to the main cast. If you developp her personnality that means you wanted her to belong to the main plot of the story.

You don't understand why people like Kazuha. But do we have to justify all of our tastes? I also know some people who likes Haibara who just CAN'T explain me objectively why she is interessting. They just like her because she's cute or intelligent. Is that all? This is not enough for me. But what can I say? They like her. This doesn't belong to me.

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You don't understand why people like Kazuha. But do we have to justify all of our tastes? I also know some people who likes Haibara who just CAN'T explain me objectively why she is interessting. They just like her because she's cute or intelligent. Is that all? This is not enough for me. But what can I say? They like her. This doesn't belong to me.
Ok, I prefer not to go any further, I really intended no offense, believe it or not. And usually I'm asking for exactly the same "justifications" why someone loves or despises another character like e.g. Ai, whether I love them or not, I'm just interested in this kind of discussions, that's a bad habit of mine. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your position. I just want to reply to some of your points where I'm do not share your opinion, then you won't hear from me again (unless you want me to explain some of my points in more details).

This is also a specificity of japanese Kansai girls.
No, I'm sorry, but that's not enough. Tell me that Osakans have much more temper than eastern Japanese, ok, I know that by myself. Tell me that all osakan girls are that jealous to punch unknown girls and cling to their potential love interests as if they'd run away any second, no. Explaining every trait, positive or negative, as being nothing more than a stereotype is a bit too easy and doesn't show her in a better light, quite the contrary.

Do you think thant Detective Boys, Kaito Kids or Sato Miwako have a better function?
Personally? Yes, I think that the Detective Boys have a function. Not in the beginning of course, they were probably just created to please the children that were reading Conan, but I think that they have an important role for the development of Conans and Ais character. I can explain that in a longer entry if you want to, I'd love to explain my position. Kaitou Kid and Satô... well, I never wondered that much about their function in Detective Conan (except for Kid being a crossover with his favorite series of course), but at least he made imho a fine job for Satôs personality. But that's an interesting question whether Satô and Kid have an important function or not.

What is the interresting personnality of Ran?
That would require another longish post to answer that one. Just say so if you want me to write one.
And he did a good job with other characters that are not main cast, like Jodie, Eisuke, Eiri and many more. Same for Heiji. He may not be intended in the first place, but Aoyama created many possibilities to give him a real personality and a credible friendship with Conan. He may still do the same for Kazuha in future, but until now, he neglected her a lot, which I think is disappointing. I might like her more if we knew more about her background, who knows...

And no, of course you don't need to justify why you like/love her. It's just that personally I think that loving a character just because he/she is cute is quite boring, that's why I love to discuss my favorite characters with other fans. No offense was meant, really, and I'm sorry in case I did give that impression.

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juneaddams.livejournal.com

Do you think that Detective Boys, Kaito Kids or Sato Miwako have a better function?

Actually that was an interesting question. :D Therefore I shall babble.

Detective Boys: it's kind of funny actually that over the course of the manga, they seem to be the only ones who have matured emotionally. When Conan was shot, for example, they teamed up to get out of the cave. Genta's concern about Conan's condition & their determination to crack the code with their own power showed how much they have changed from the clueless, reckless but panicky kids who investigated the ghost house in vol.2 to resourceful, if still a lot vulnerable and spontaneous, little detectives. As for their function, I think one can argue that DB represents the most honest conscience of all DC characters. A moral guideline, like how Ayumi's passionate 'I don't want to run' speech helped Ai to take the harder but true-to-her heart choice of not taking the Witness Protection Program.

Kaito Kid...is Shinichi's mirror, a completely opposite yet identical reflection-his equal in everything but fate. Equal intelligence, equal good heart...but they stand on the opposite side of the law thanks to fate. He constantly challenges Conan's perspective of good and evil, being both ally and enemy, and Gosho's way of turning the black and white ambient of DC a little gray. He has also provided Shinichi an opportunity to enjoy playing mental puzzles without the extra guilt of failing to save someone's life.

And...Ai. It's kind of hard to explain because she has too many roles. In a narrative sense, she was the representation of what kind of damage BO can impose to people who cross their way. Before Ai was introduced, all we know about BO is that they like to blow up and kill people, and occasionally ride a roller coaster (okay, bad joke, moving on). But, just like in good thriller where things omitted and alluded elicit more fear than things shown in explicit visual, BO's threats are multiplied in intensity just by looking at how this girl goes from complete cool, 'whatever' state to an almost mental breakdown whenever the black shadows lurked nearby. I don't know if that makes sense. It's like, she's the 'screen' into which all the unseen horrors of BO's doing are projected to our imagination. Obviously, she was also the catalyst of the plot between 20-42 ( the cat-and-mouse game between Conan, the FBI, and the BO) and entertainment-wise, Conan's verbal sparring partner. I think it's also interesting to note that she was the only female character who, despite only appearing once in a while, had a privilege of having her own emotional arc--from the fearful criminal to those capable of facing her tormentor (42) and bravely choosing the path of possible redemption. We can say that this arc ended on volume 42--but in a way it was also a beginning to a tougher journey.

Ran: ...is a paradox, a twin in one self. The damsel-in-distress and the savior. The fragile lover beneath a warrior-steel outer persona. Clouds beneath sunshine. An angel who mingles with the devils--and even though she doesn't quite realize it yet--is their downfall towards light. She's irony, in a way.

Sato, quite frankly, is one bold statement against the traditional rules of what constitutes a good girl in our sometimes patrilineal culture. She had a fairly normal upbringing, even without her father. She's atrractive, obviously, and never lacking suitors. Yet her first dedication is to her job, in which she's painted as someone utterly equal, if not more skilled, than her male partner and co-workers.

whoa...LJ hasn't cut me off yet? awesome. XD. how long is the maximum length, anyway?

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Awesome!:D

I have not that much to add, you're pretty much talking of the same ideas I have.^___^

@ Detective Boys
I agree to 100% about their evolution and that they're (still) one of the few really innocent characters in the story and therefor act as a good conscience. I'd just add that I think their especially the good conscience for Conan, later also for Ai. Conan is pretty much reckless in the beginning and learns to be responsible imho more with the Detective Boys than with Ran. I think that he wouldn't be that mature without them, especially when one compares Shinichi's behavior to Conan. Of course the MiB and the constant danger was just as much an influence on his evolution, but I still think that taking care of small children helped a lot too.
Plus sometimes we have a little inside that Shinichi still isn't completely grown-up too when he plays with them. Of course he's quite annoyed most time, but there are some (very hidden) childish remains left in his personality.^__^

Nothing more to add for Kid and Ai right now, but let me tell you that I liked that part about Ran a lot!:D
I'd love to talk about hours how she influenced Shinichi's personality as well, but I seriously have to reread the manga to give more than a vague answer, I prefer some more precise examples.^^;

Satô and Takagi... I'm just wondering, which one was the first? I can't remember.^^; But in any case I don't consider her as a mere love interest for Takagi, I think she has become even a lot more important personality than Takagi. (except for that case where Conan was stuck with him in the Tôkyô Tower of course)

Can't add that much more right now.^__^

whoa...LJ hasn't cut me off yet? awesome. XD. how long is the maximum length, anyway?
Uuh, possibly about 4.500 words?xD I hate that maximum length...;>__>

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Takagi was first. Originally he was an Anime-only character, aka random Cop used as a plot device. ~~Actually the first time we see him in the anime, a very early episode, he SMOKES. And then in movie 11 apparently Sato comments on how he DOESN'T! XD I am amused.~~

Manga-wise he first appears around book 17, and is given an equal role to Maigret's in book 20 Flash-back Air Flight case. Sato follows around book 19 as random female cop who gets a narrative promotion book 21.

At least that's if I recall it properly. ♥

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>>> This is also a specificity of japanese Kansai girls.
No, I'm sorry, but that's not enough. Tell me that Osakans have much more temper than eastern Japanese, ok, I know that by myself. Tell me that all osakan girls are that jealous to punch unknown girls and cling to their potential love interests as if they'd run away any second, no. Explaining every trait, positive or negative, as being nothing more than a stereotype is a bit too easy and doesn't show her in a better light, quite the contrary. <<<

Yes, and Kazuha IS a stereotype and NOTHING else.
This is not enough for you but most of japanese people don't need anything else. I never try to tell you she's more interresting. I just try to explain you something people don't understand most of the time in occident. If you don't understand it I can't help.

You talked about the development of her personnality but I don't understand why you need to developp so much about every character in a story. Sometimes characters are just here but not for really important reason. Do you try to understand why there is some people in the background of the scene? As a side character, I don't think she need to have a better function than the one she has.

>>> And he did a good job with other characters that are not main cast, like Jodie, Eisuke, Eiri and many more. <<<

Jodie and Eisuke are more in the main cast than Kazuha. They have a role in the main plot. In french I would say that Kazuha is a "3ieme roles" and Jodie & Eisuke are "2ond roles". I can't compare them.

>>> Same for Heiji. He may not be intended in the first place, but Aoyama created many possibilities to give him a real personality and a credible friendship with Conan.<<<

Conan is the main character that's why it was important he has a best friend. Kazuha could'nt become the best friend of Ran because she also have Sonoko and Sonoko was an original idea of Aoyama. I imagine he didn't want to erase this character.

>>> He may still do the same for Kazuha in future, but until now, he neglected her a lot, <<<

I have the same feeling but I have to admitt she's not so important in the plot. I think Aoyama himself is bored with the relationship between Heiji and Kazuha. There is no evolution but this is not a problem of the characters but of the pressure Aoyama receive by his editor. If Aoyama achieved the reliationship between a couple, some fans (especially shonen-ai fans) would loose interrest in the manga, so this is not a good idea for his business.

>>> And no, of course you don't need to justify why you like/love her. It's just that personally I think that loving a character just because he/she is cute is quite boring, that's why I love to discuss my favorite characters with other fans. No offense was meant, really, and I'm sorry in case I did give that impression.<<<

No, no, I mean there is no offence. But I think you can explain what you like but not everytime. My boyfriend was like you 5 years ago but he reconsider his opinion. for example, you don't need to explain why you like Haibara. I can imagine and I can recognize her quality. BUT, I don't like her because she's so coward, she doesn't assume anything (that's just my feeling) and in fact, I hate her personnality. I just want to slap her when she's talking.

That's all for today. I'm really sleepy tonight.

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Well, for the Kazuha's issue, it seemed that everyone had given her/his point of view and that the only thing to do is to agree that we desagree.
We said that Kazuha is nothing but a stereotype, you said she was not supposed to be more, we said that we want to see Kazuha beeing fleshed, you said that she don't need to be. Everyone had his/her point of views, it's fine.
So, nothing to add about this subject for me.

But, it's harder for me to be indifferent to your words about Haibara.
Fair enough after all, you have used your answer's right with my comment about Kazuha, I would made the same thing, right now.XD

"BUT, I don't like her because she's so coward, she doesn't assume anything (that's just my feeling) and in fact, I hate her personnality. I just want to slap her when she's talking."

Well, obviously, we're not giving the same meaning to the word coward.
Someone who feels fear is not a coward when he had reasons to be scared.
Haibara is scared to be catched and killed by the orgu?Well, yes, and it would be hard for her to act in a different way.
She had spent her entire life in the orgu, know how they act with the people who could threatens her, know how much they're powerfull(Honestly, they've destroyed an entire laboratory without a second thought after her escape to be sure to don't let a hints behind us, Pisco was one of the richest business man in Japan and Gin said clearly it was the orgu which was the origine of his wealth, and let's not talk about the fact the orgu is, at least, fifty years old...).
Her only protection is the fact that they ignore she is a child, but since experimentation with apotoxin would continue, she couldn't know how long this ignorance will stay. And her colleague know how she looked like a child anyway.

So, what could be the more clever move to made? Fighting the orgu alone like Conan is trying to do?
Trying to destroy a tank with your bare hand is not a courage's proof, it's just a proof of stupidity, and that's what Conan was doing in fighting the orgu.
He is just a teenager, in a child state, for what we know about him, he had only catched occassional criminal until now and it's not the same thing at all that fighting a criminal syndicate, he haven't asked help to person who have the means and the knowledge to fight organized crime(he had refused Yusaku's help), and he's just collecting information alone, so how could it's possible for him to imagine that he could fight the orgu? I would ever said that simply imagine that he could protect Haibara from her colleagues is an overestimation of her competence.

For someone who had a bit a commun sense, Conan don't have a single chance against the orgu, so it's normal for Haibara to restrain him in his action and to trying to convince him to don't fight them anymore.
And let's not talk about Shinichi's attitude in vol 26...

Conan destroying the orgu alone, or with Maigret and Agasa's help?The chance it could snow in hell are higher.
Conan helping the FBI to destroy the orgu?It's more believable, but before vol 42/43, Conan and Ai are ignoring that the FBI knows the existence of the orgu and is searching them in Japan.
So, before vol 42, which views are the more clever?Conan's view or Haibara's view? I don't need to explain my opinion about this matter, I think.

Beeing overconfident and unrealistic=/=courage, beeing realistic=/=beeing a coward.

And even if she's scared, Ai is trying to get over her fear(in vol 24, she chose to go in this hotel with Conan with her won mind).

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She's don't assuming anything? What are you talking about, I don't understood.
When Conan is accusing her to be the creator of a poison, she said she had not created it freely? Well, she is saying a simple fact since she didn't have chose to beeing a part of the syndicate but was born inside. And with this syndicate's method, refusing to collaborate with them would have made them killed her and her sister(who was innocent and her only family).If she would have refused, another scientist would have done it(with org's means, they would have found someone), so I don't think we could trully said that she had a choice...
Yes, she have the possibility to refuse, but honestly, in the same situation, I don't think that a lots of people would have done that, Shinichi implied.
Conan is saying that he could not understood a murderer? She said it she was not a murderer by pleasure and don't insist after, with Conan's behaviour, it was clear for her that she would not convince him so she said a very simple answer. In my opinion, it's not the same thing that refusing to assume her sins.

Plus, when she is on the edge to beeing killed in vol 24, what she is trying to do? She's said to Kudo all the things that she could remember about her poison in the hope it would help Agasa to create an antidote.
She have nothing to gain in acting like that, she could have begged Kudo to save her or said to him to fled but instead of that, she is trying to use her last chance to repair her error in helping he victim.
If it's not a way to assume her act, I don't know what it could be.

Vol 26? She's giving temporary antidote to Kudo to help him with his situation with Ran, and she had stayed discretly near him to help him if the antidote was not working(and it's what have finally happens). If it's not a way to assume her act and the risk that her antidote couldn't work, I don't know what it could be.

The vol 42? Did I need to talk about the way she acts in vol 42?No, I don't think since I don't think it's possible to don't see that she's assuming her crimes and her errors in this volume. If I remember correctly, she even thought that Kudo don't have to sacrifice himself for her since he was not responsible.

The boss's mail? Well, before to know who is the boss, it would be hard to said if Haibara is making a good choice in restraining Conan to use this mail adress.
But I will give my own opinion about this matter.
It's stated several times in the manga, the organisation is hiding her existence to the world, they don't hesitate to kills people and to destroy their infrastucture to keep this secret. So, the chance that Conan could find a direct link between the boss and the orguanisation? I don't think there is many, if our detective had just a mail adress in his pocket.
A mail adress he had found because he believes to have hear the first notes of an childish song when Vermouth was mailing her boss? Yeah, definitly a proof which could put someone in jail...
Using the mail to create a trapp for the boss? Yes, and how? In trying to convince him/her that it's one of her/his operatives who had send a mail?It would be very easy for the boss to know if it was trully one of his/her operative who had send it a mail. He/she had just to send a mail to this operative.The chance that the trapp could be discovered are too high to uses it in my opinion. So, Haibara choice seemed the more clever for me.

In conclusion, no, it's hard for me to picture Ai like a coward or someone who is refusing to assuming her acts.
Sorry for the Too Long;Don't Read, but we're all talkative when it concerns our favorite characters.^__^;
But then, it's just my opinion, everyone is free to desagree.

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Desolee mais je reponds en francais car le message precedent a bf nightinghale m'a pris beaucoup de temps. Je n'ai pas le courage de repondre en anglais aujourd'hui.

Je m'excuse mais je ne suis pas interessee par un debat sur le temperament de Haibara. J'ai deja eu ce genre de discussion plus d'une fois avec d'autres personnes et comme je l'ai dis meme si je reconnais ses qualites et son role important dans l'histoire, rien ne va a l'encontre du fait que je la deteste. Je n'ai rien a vous prouver: le fait que je la ressente comme une lache, une couarde est une impression personnelle. Je n'ai rien a vous prouver et je sais que la plupart des gens l'apprecie. C'est bien. A vrai dire J'avais jsute pris l'expemple de Ai pour illustrer mes propos car justement la plupart des gens l'apprecient. Je ne cherchais pas a lancer de nouveau debat.

Je n'ai rien d'autre a ajouter sur ce sujet.

(no subject)

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randomaicoholic.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-05-04 11:55 am (UTC) - Expand

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I just try to explain you something people don't understand most of the time in occident.
No, please, not that cliché again. Do you have any idea how often Japanese specialists and students of Japanese get to hear that answer? It's the typical cliché answer every Japanese seems to give an Occidental, it's annoying. And way too often utterly ridiculous.
Yes, japanese and occidental cultures are different. But no, they are not that different that you can't possibly ever understand japanese mentality. So please, just stop that.
Both japanese and occidental cultures are primarily made of individuals, even if the japanese people seem to live more in a sort of group mentality than Occidentals do. That's why it makes my heart ache when you're talking about "most japanese people don't need anything else". You're identifying most japanese people with another stereotype, and I still won't accept this that easily.
I guess you're focusing too much on the japanese stereotypes, but in fact, this behavior is totally similar to any other fan group in any other culture, regardless which kind of fandom it is. Lots of people just don't want to ponder over their favorite series, characters and pairings, the only thing they want is entertainment and cute characters they can squeal at. This is not typical for japanese people but for the whole mankind, really! While some other people, japanese or occidental or zulu or martian like to discuss the same series, characters and pairings.
And I'm sorry when I assumed that you were amongst the people who liked to discuss, my bad. I suppose I have been with too many fen who love discussions about our fandoms, I have been getting used to that.

Personally, I'm really sorry that you consider japanese people in general (and yourself?) as someone who doesn't need more than an empty stereotype character (though I'm still not happy with your mere definition of a stereotype), but we obviously have very opposite point of views and probably won't come to an agreement, that's why I won't continue to spam Dagron's lj with that topic. Sorry Dag, it won't happen again.^^;

for example, you don't need to explain why you like Haibara. I can imagine and I can recognize her quality. BUT, I don't like her because she's so coward, she doesn't assume anything (that's just my feeling) and in fact, I hate her personnality.
And that's exactly what I (and obviously some other people here) like to do, just explain what kind of qualities she has, what kind of anti-qualities she has and perhaps even explain our conclusions why we finally like or dislike her. And we do that with most characters and pairings we like or dislike or simply think they're interesting. I'm not necessarily writing essays about each character, but I still like to know why I think one pairing works and why another probably won't work.
I'm writing fanfiction about those characters and I like to give them some depth, whether I like them or not, fics (or novels in general) with empty stereotypes are imho not worth reading. The Shinichis and Rans and Heijis and Kazuhas in those fics are just silhouettes with names, totally uninteresting unless you (impersonal "you") like silhouettes with names who often behave ooc but cute - and eventually have sex.
That's why I like to know more about the characters. And while I can't see Heiji/Kazuha ever work, osakan stereotype relationship or not, I'm interested in the point of view of their fans why they think it could work. And stereotypes just don't give me a thing for writing working pairings.

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. . .

Ouch. >.<;;

(no subject)

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bf-nightingale.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-05-03 04:38 pm (UTC) - Expand

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>>> I just try to explain you something people don't understand most of the time in occident.
No, please, not that cliché again. Do you have any idea how often Japanese specialists and students of Japanese get to hear that answer? It's the typical cliché answer every Japanese seems to give an Occidental, it's annoying. And way too often utterly ridiculous.<<<

First I'm NOT japanese and I'm an ex-student of japanese (with a Master Level). And please don't lecture me.

I have a question for you. Did you live in Japan? Where and how long?

>>> Yes, japanese and occidental cultures are different. But no, they are not that different that you can't possibly ever understand japanese mentality. So please, just stop that. <<<

It seems you really understand japanese mentality so can you explain me?

>>>Both japanese and occidental cultures are primarily made of individuals, even if the japanese people seem to live more in a sort of group mentality than Occidentals do. That's why it makes my heart ache when you're talking about "most japanese people don't need anything else". You're identifying most japanese people with another stereotype, and I still won't accept this that easily. <<<

Why?

>>> Lots of people just don't want to ponder over their favorite series, characters and pairings, the only thing they want is entertainment and cute characters they can squeal at. This is not typical for japanese people but for the whole mankind, really! <<<

Arguing that, you are making an assertion which generalyze as much as the assertion I made about stereotype.

>>> While some other people, japanese or occidental or zulu or martian like to discuss the same series, characters and pairings. <<<

I never said I didn't want to discuss. I just desagree with most of your point of view.

>>> And I'm sorry when I assumed that you were amongst the people who liked to discuss, my bad. I suppose I have been with too many fen who love discussions about our fandoms, I have been getting used to that. <<<

Bon alors la je trouve ce genre de propos arrogants et insultants. Tu ne me connais pas et moi je ne te connais pas. Je ne te permets pas de tenir de tels propos a mon egard. Nous sommes des individus civilises et je tiens a ce que la netiquette soit respectee surtout que nous sommes sur le forum de qqun d'autre.

Ah oui, j'ai switche en francais. J'en avais un peu marre de repondre a des attaques personnelles dans une langue qui n'est pas la mienne.

>>>> Personally, I'm really sorry that you consider japanese people in general (and yourself?) as someone who doesn't need more than an empty stereotype character (though I'm still not happy with your mere definition of a stereotype), but we obviously have very opposite point of views and probably won't come to an agreement, that's why I won't continue to spam Dagron's lj with that topic. Sorry Dag, it won't happen again.^^; <<<

Tres bien arretons nous la. Tout le monde s'en portera un peu mieux.

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Let's said that I dont agree with you on many points.

Yes, Saito don't play a role in the main plot of the story, but the character is three-dimensional, her past is explored, her relationship with Takagi evolves, her romance is a piece of fresh air in Aoyama's universe(it's a romance between adults and partners, not between teenagers, and I don't see the infamous "childhood love"'s plot device used to built it), and we couldn't a find a single bit of the idealistic and patriarchal vision of the ideal woman in her.
So even if she don't play a role in the plot, I'm interessed by Sato, love to read about her and I'm glad that Gosho had created her.

Kazuha is a basic cliché, she don't evolves at all, she don't have qualities to compensate her flaws, her romance with Heiji is not fleshed at all and if we forget this romance, we couldn't find anything in her...
That's why I dislike Kazuha, not because she don't play a role in the plot.
I know, I'm very harsh with her, but it's the problem, even if I try, I don't find a single positive thing to said about this poor Kazuha. That's why I would be glad if you could extent my vision of the character in showing me some side of her that I don't have seen for now.
After all, for what I know of you(Yes, I'm a lurker on Beika^^; ), you're not a japanese, even if you live in Osaka, so I don't think that you've loved Kazuha because this character match with your expectations as a japanese reader.
That's why I would be interessed to see why you were interessed by her.
You see, it's the point of this kind of discussions. Obviously no one had to justify her/his tastes but trying to defend them could be a good thing because it could extent the opinions of the others and vice-versa.

"I also know some people who likes Haibara who just CAN'T explain me objectively why she is interessting. They just like her because she's cute or intelligent. Is that all? This is not enough for me. But what can I say? They like her. This doesn't belong to me."
It's not enough for me either since I don't adore her because she's intelligent or cute. But if you're interessed, I could gives you more develloped reasons about my favorite character.^_-

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Don't worry, your english is certainly far more better than mine.^_^;
It would be more simple for both of us if we uses french but since some people here don't speak this language and could be interessed by my answer, I will continue to butcher Shakespeare's language with you.XD

"Kazuha is a stereotype of japanese KANSAI teenager. She acts like japanese Osaka girls. This is the most important thing. It's seems that japanese like to compare KANTO (Tokyo aera) and KANSAI (Osaka aera). That's why Ran and Kazuha needed to be so similar. But she have some differences. When you live in Japan, you can feel the difference of character (temper? not sure of my english). Maybe this is just what you don't understand."

Nope, I don't understand. A cliché is, by definition, overused and boring.
You could take create a character with a basic cliché and made him/her lovable/interessing/fascinating besides that if you fleshed it in showing that she/he's more that a cliché, in showing that she/he had particularities which allow her/him to don't exist only in the form of a living cliché, in making him/her evolve.

In few words, I want to read about human and three-dimensionnal characters not cliché. I could empathize with character, not with archetypal figure.
But Gosho don't have fleshed Kazuha at all in my opinion, she's just here to play her role as comic's device and Heiji's love interest, period.

And romance for the sake of romance bores me to death, when I read a romance I want to read about two human beeing falling in love, not two cliché/idealistic teenagers falling in love...Idealistic feelings are empty, it didn't interessed me at all.
I want to see why those two people feels attraction for each other, how each of them is affecting the other, which consequences their relationship had on their lives and their respective view of the world, and besides all, I want to see WHY their relationship is unique and not a carbon copy of another one.

If Gosho wanted to create a girlfriend for Heiji, fine. But it would have been better if he had put some effort in this character instead of creating it with basic cliché which match with the average readers's expectation.

And like have said Nightyngale, when Aoyama had created Heiji, he had fleshed the character, he's something far more interessing that a mascot for Kansai's people. Was it so difficult for him to made the same thing with Kazuha?

"In Kansai and especially in Osaka, people like fighting when they like each other. This is not a probleme of maturity but of culture. People in Kanto are differents. They don't argue like that."
I think that I will trying to avoid that..No, I will not. I don't like to see human beeing trapped in stereotype. Beeing possesive, jealous and don't trying to respect the desires of your beloved is immature in every countries in the world in my opinion. And a behaviour is not more acceptable because it match with cultural steotype.

"But you know, if you don't like Kazuha, this is not a problem. I don't like Haibara Ai and most of people don't really understand why I don't like her."
Each one have the right to like or dislike the character of his/her choice, but I think it's interessing to trying to understood views different of mine. If people are not agree with my point of view about Kazuha, they've the right to said it and explain to me why, it's a very good things and I loved that you've done it.^__^

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And like have said Nightyngale

Hey, I know that the 'y' is way cooler than the 'i', but still, I can be pretty old-fashioned when it comes to names and their spelling!=P

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Oops, sorry.XD

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"So she don't have the right to act like a wife cheated by her husband, she don't have the right to insult someone who could be Heiji's potential lover and saying to her that she would never break the sacred bound between her and Heiji..Nope..."

She doesn't have a right to act like a friend afraid her friend's love would cause him to forget all about her? I thought one of the things about mariage is that many seemed to lose a circle of friends through them to please their partner?

That said, agreed about the maturing. Heiji seems to have kiddified as the story went along. Only evolution I've seen is he no longer treats the BO lightly.

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Dag, if I was forcing you to talk me about your love life, asking to you suspicious questions about the kind of people you know and that I didn't know, was expecting you to give me clear repport of what you have done when I was not with you. If I suspect you to have a love interest who is not worth of you and that I was harrasing this person in your back...
If I act like that, I'm not acting like a friend, I'm acting like a jerk who don't respect your private life, your freedom of choice and who is treating you like a child or a pet instead of an human beeing...

A friends have the right to feels concerns for a friend, if a friends think that one of her friends is making an error, he had the right to said it to his friend...
But he don't have the right to infering in her life.

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. . . Are we still talking about Kazuha here? Because surely she's not that bad and Heiji should have no trouble shrugging her off if she was (even if the fanon that she follows him every where turns out to be right.)

At most she's like an overbearing sister, neh?

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In her first appearances?She acts like that.Or to be more precise, her behaviour seemed like that for me.
Yes, Heiji wouldn't have trouble schrugging her, but it did not excuse Kazuha's behaviour.

"At most she's like an overbearing sister, neh?"
But she is NOT Heiji's sister, and she's not Shizuka either, she's just a childhood friend.
And even if Kazuha was Heiji's sister, I would have still found her behaviour with Ran childish, egoistical and despisable...

Besides, Kazuha is acting like that with Ran without knowing her at all(so how could she know that she is not worth of Heiji or was not just a friend?), and she was not trully searching to help Heiji, she was beguining a catfight about the theme "he's mind, you bitch"

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~~You sure that's not your inner Ran-fanatic speaking up dear? XD~~

If I recall well *too lazy to reread* Kazuha goes to Ran and says something along the lines of "so you're Kudo, huh? Listen up mate, Heiji and Me we're friends for life, don't you dare come between us."

At no point did she question Heiji about his love life. At no point does she question Ran.

She's an Alpha-Female feeling a menace, a challenge, and she's openly challenging her opponent, while cleverly avoiding crude words such as love♥. All this based on the (stupid, admittedly) assumption that Heiji would only talk so much about a girl. ~~Well he can be a flirt at times. CF the swimsuit guessing game.~~

She doesn't interrogate, ever. She makes assumptions and issues challenges or sulks when she can't find a politically correct way of doing so. (CF Ran being nice and taking Kazuha shopping.) Her problem is that she bases everything on emotion and doesn't question her deductions or base them on enough evidence. She could do with learning a thing or two from Kudo.

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